AGAIN: sharing the data

[Benjamin Ducke]

Wood wrote:
> Dear Benjamin,
> 
> Thanks for your comments, I will try and respond to your issues as best I
> can.
> 
> Perhaps I haven’t explained Nabonidus well enough. It is an online tool much
> like www.flickr.com or www.myspace.com rather than a downloadable desktop
> application. 
> Therefore the issues of licensing and being morally obliged to share our
> code don’t apply. 

No, you explained well, but you did not give details about the software
you used, so I just blindly guessed that some of it was GPL. If its not,
there is of course no legal binding.

As regards the GPL, downloadable or not is not always a criterion:
E.g. a company that puts a Linux system and some GPL'd
firewall software on a network router, then sells it to an internet
provider who in turn rents it to a customer still has to release the
GPL'd source codes the used in their machine. And there is no desktop
or downloadable anything involved here.

The moral obligation is, of course, a philosophical matter; no use
arguing about that.

> 
> Having said that we would be happy to share our code and invite
> contributions from developers around the world but the aim of Nabonidus is
> to create a centralized website for archaeological data and sharing so
> having multiple instances of the application defeats the purpose. On the
> other hand we are having vigorous discussion about publishing the code to a
> site such as www.codeplex.com so people can contribute and drive
> development.

I think if you look at other open source projects you will find that the
risk of "fragmentation" of the code base is a small one to take in
exchange for the influx of creativity, euphorism and support from the
user  ommmunity.

> 
>  We hope Nabonidus builds up a community of archaeologists who drive the
> development of new functionality. Obviously this is restricted by the time
> we have to build things – we are not a software house or even affiliated
> with any institution – we are 2 people building this software in our spare
> time.

That's exactly the reason to go open source, so you will get help from
other spare time developers -- of course, there is no guarantee for it,
as the number of archaeologists with programming skills is comparatively
small.

> 
> If you are interested we are using the .Net framework, we develop using web
> developer express and Sql express – all free tools. If we were to publish
> our code we would have to do it under the GNU lesser public license as we
> make use of the .Net class library.

No GPL software here, so obviously no obligation for you to (L)GPL
anything. Anyway, you can publish your * own * code, no matter what
programming  language it is written in, under any license you like. You
can also write up your own, if you fancy it. I don't know what license
the particular .Net class libraries your project uses come with, but you
need not be concerned about that as long as you don't want to 
disassemble and spread them in modified form (I guess other ways of
distribution are ok with Microsoft?).

E.g. the Linux Kernel comes with interfaces for commercial,
closed-source drivers and is still GPL software.

There are also open source implementations of major .net classes in
project Mono.

> 
> In response to your last paragraph there is nothing more we can say.
> Nabonidus will be free as long as we are in control of it and if in the
> future we are financially incapable of continuing we would appeal to the
> archaeological community rather than take any commercial option. What would
> make you feel more confident about using Nabonidus seeing as an open source
> license doesn’t apply?

Nothing, because I cannot be sure that my data will still be recoverable 
20 years from now from a closed proprietary system such MS SQL Server.
Heck, I have a hard time getting Access 97 data into Access 2003.
On the other hand: importing an old 1989 geodatabase from open source
GRASS GIS into a 2006 version: five minutes.

And that's the difference.

Best,

Benjamin

>  
> Regards,
> 
> Sam Wood.
> http://www.nabonidus.org http://www.nabonidus.org 
> 
> Ps I hope Netscape is doing well in Germany as it definitely not doing too
> well here!

Yes it is: mozilla, seamonkey, nvu, thunderbird and above all firefox
are all netscape soruce offspring and thriving -- anywhere in the world
wide web.

> 
> 
> Benjamin Ducke wrote:
> 
>>Are you using open source software (Apache,MySQL etc.) for your project?
>>Specifically software under the GPL?
>>If sou, you should feel at least morally obliged to also publish your
>>source codes.
>>
>>If you use modifided GPL'd software for your project or are linking to
>>GPL'd libraries than there might be more than just a moral obligation.
>>Especially in the light of your website's statement:
>>
>>"Commercial excavations will need to pay the a yearly subscription fee".
>>
>>You might want to review the licenses of all open source components in
>>view of legal obligations.
>>
>>Apart from this: consider the benefits for the longevity of your project
>>if you manage to bind a community to open source development to it.
>>The GRASS GIS project is a prime example of a piece of software that
>>survived and is now thriving because it went open source. Other
>>examples: Netscape, Open Office, Qt, MySQL, ...
>>
>>It seems that the advantages of open source development outweigh the
>>problems in the long run.
>>
>>And finally: it's nice to hear your commitment that your project will
>>always be free. But with all due respect,that's not enough of a
>>guarantee for a long term, potentially costly project such as
>>an archaeological excavation (at least it would not be for me).
>>An open source license, on the other hand ...
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Benjamin
>>
>>Wood wrote:
>>
>>>Dear Leif, 
>>>
>>>thanks for your reply, to answer your questions:
>>>
>>>Firstly its a website so its not closed or proprietry software - anyone
>>>with
>>>an internet connection can use it. Functionality-wise they can't add to
>>>it
>>>but we are really relying on input from people like yourself and other
>>>archaeologists to drive our development efforts - for example the next
>>>release has a whole lot of reporting functionality requested by the Porta
>>>Stabia Pompei excavation.
>>>
>>>We have no plans to make Nabonidus open source - we have no problem with
>>>sharing the code - it is more because the whole idea of nabonidus is to
>>>have
>>>a centralised repository for data comparison and analysis. If in the
>>>future
>>>people want to install there own version of nabonidus somewhere and data
>>>is
>>>shared  via web services or some other mechanism then sure that would be
>>>great too.
>>>
>>>Secondly yes currently it is a black box - its essentially a Sql Database
>>>with a web front end. It is hoped that with input from the archaeological
>>>community it will become whatever they want and need. We hope to expose
>>>nabonidus data using web services and to allow the import and export of
>>>data
>>>via CSV files, basically we hope to make Nabonidus as open and as usable
>>>as
>>>possible.
>>>
>>>As for lisencing there is no issue - it is a free tool - and it will
>>>never
>>>be anything other than a free tool. At the moment we are looking for
>>>funding
>>>or a patron or something to cover the cost of hosting and maintenance but
>>>we
>>>will never charge excavations to use it. We really just want Nabonidus to
>>>be
>>>a tool for all archaeologists to be able to compare and store data, and
>>>we
>>>want it to be adaptable to their needs as possible.
>>>
>>>Does this sound possible? It would be great to hear any comments or
>>>suggestions you have.
>>>
>>>best regards,
>>>
>>>Sam
>>>
>>>http://www.nabonidus.org www.nabonidus.org 
>>>
>>>
>>>Leif Isaksen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dear Sam,
>>>>
>>>>thanks for bringing Nabonidus to my attention - it looks like a good
>>>>recording system. Am I right in thinking that it's closed and proprietary
>>>>software however? Whilst I'm also keen to work towards the sharing and
>>>>cross-compatability of data, I would be reluctant to have it hosted in a
>>>>single 'black box' over which the archaeological community has no control
>>>>in terms of functionality or licensing. What is your policy with regard
> 
> to
> 
>>>>these issues?
>>>>
>>>>regards
>>>>
>>>>Leif
>>>>
>>>>Leif Isaksen
>>>>Application Development and Support
>>>>Oxford Archaeology
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: archaeology-bounces+l.isaksen=oxfordarch.co.uk@lists.linux.it
>>>>[mailto:archaeology-bounces+l.isaksen=oxfordarch.co.uk@lists.linux.it]On
>>>>Behalf Of Wood
>>>>Sent: 05 October 2006 15:19
>>>>To: archaeology@lists.linux.it
>>>>Subject: Re: AGAIN: sharing the data
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sharing Data is an extremely important issue. In my opinion the value
>>>>gained
>>>>far outways the complications which arise when trying to standardise
> 
> data,
> 
>>>>methods etc. If you are wanting to move to a more practical level you
>>>>should
>>>>have a look at www.nabonidus.org. It is an evolving website for the
>>>>storage,
>>>>management, manipulation and publication of excavation data. It is
> 
> totally
> 
>>>>free and we think far advanced of any data recording system in use on any
>>>>academic or commercial excavation today. 
>>>>
>>>>The reason for offering Nabonidus to the archaeological community is that
>>>>we
>>>>believe a system such as this could change archaeological excavation and
>>>>research across the world. It is currently used by the Pompeii
>>>>Archaeological Research Project: Porta Stabia run by the University of
>>>>Michigan and Stanford University and has the capacity to be used by
> 
> 1000?s
> 
>>>>of excavations. All data is secure and private, accessible and malleable
>>>>and
>>>>the system can be adapted to any excavation?s needs. Nabonidus saves
>>>>enormous amounts of work and time for archaeologists both onsite and
>>>>during
>>>>post excavation research. Even if you are currently using a database for
>>>>your excavation, all information can be easily imported from this into
> 
> the
> 
>>>>Nabonidus system. Please if you have the time; take a look at the website
>>>>and at the demonstration excavations and feel free to experiment. There
> 
> is
> 
>>>>a
>>>>PDF attached with more information.
>>>>
>>>>Nabonidus is produced on an entirely voluntary basis. It has been built
> 
> by
> 
>>>>archaeologists for archaeologists so if you have any questions or
>>>>contributions please get in touch at administrator@nabonidus.org ? your
>>>>suggestions will be incorporated into the next build. 
>>>>
>>>>This is the blurb from our website - after reading these threads I am
> 
> glad
> 
>>>>to see that others are considering and wanting to address the issue of
>>>>archaoelogical data sharing. Nabonidus gives you the choice of making
> 
> your
> 
>>>>data public or private so prior to publication you could keep it private
>>>>if
>>>>wished then expose it all for anyone to look at. 
>>>>
>>>>Please have a look, we would be happy to hear from anyone. thanks
>>>>
>>>>Sam Wood
>>>>
>>>>Giancarlo Macchi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well since Vittorio's last words things got extremely quiet in
>>>>>here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Let's try to get more
>>>>>>practical in the next posts; if anyone agrees at all on the several 
>>>>>
>>>>>points
>>>>>
>>>>>>that have been raised, let's try to formulate some proposals on how
>>>>>
>>>>>to
>>>>>go
>>>>>
>>>>>>about it.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>Are we stuck at this point? Yeah, I definitely think so. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>In fact we are able to talk about a lot on nice theoretical
>>>>>things but when we try to move to a practical level then ...
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I think that I will still insist on the
>>>>>"data sharing" issue. Which I think is actually the ISSUE here.
>>>>>Just think for a second, if the data of my archaeological models
>>>>>is available on the public domain then I am forced to be formal
>>>>>in the quantification and definition processes.  Therefore
>>>>>whoever would like to follow this path should be formal also in
>>>>>the definition of the data itself.  And finally one may also be
>>>>>forced to save his/her files encoded with common open formats.
>>>>>Roberto has always insisted on this point: "the real problem is
>>>>>the data". "Where is data?" "Do I have access to your data?"
>>>>>
>>>>>So, before we start to be practical let us measure if it is worth it.
>>>>>
>>>>>a) How many of you are willing to share their own data?
>>>>>b) How many of you are able to share their own data?
>>>>>c) What kind of data would you eventually share with the community?
>>>>>  everything? a part of it? only the part related with my published
>>>>>  models or theories?
>>>>>
>>>>>Once we know exactly the amount and type of information that
>>>>>eventually we will be available then probably we will decide if
>>>>>it is worth to move to a more practical level.
>>>>>
>>>>>Have a nice W.E.
>>>>>
>>>>>  giancarlo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-- 
>>>>>Mailing list info: http://lists.linux.it/listinfo/archaeology
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>>>View this message in context:
>>>>http://www.nabble.com/AGAIN%3A-sharing-the-data-tf2317384.html#a6659490
>>>>Sent from the Free Archaeology mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>>>Mailing list info: http://lists.linux.it/listinfo/archaeology
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This message has been scanned for viruses by BlackSpider MailControl -
>>>>www.blackspider.com
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Mailing list info: http://lists.linux.it/listinfo/archaeology
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>-- 
>>Benjamin Ducke, M.A.
>>Archäoinformatik
>>(Archaeoinformation Science)
>>Institut für Ur- und Frühgeschichte
>>(Inst. of Prehistoric and Historic Archaeology)
>>Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel
>>Johanna-Mestorf-Straße 2-6
>>D 24098 Kiel
>>Germany
>>
>>Tel.: ++49 (0)431 880-3378 / -3379
>>Fax : ++49 (0)431 880-7300
>>www.uni-kiel.de/ufg
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>Mailing list info: http://lists.linux.it/listinfo/archaeology
>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
Benjamin Ducke, M.A.
Archäoinformatik
(Archaeoinformation Science)
Institut für Ur- und Frühgeschichte
(Inst. of Prehistoric and Historic Archaeology)
Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel
Johanna-Mestorf-Straße 2-6
D 24098 Kiel
Germany

Tel.: ++49 (0)431 880-3378 / -3379
Fax : ++49 (0)431 880-7300
www.uni-kiel.de/ufg